First Generation Cross-breeds
Cujo will be bred to Registered Border Collies, Rita and Lil Sister.
Tess will be bred to Cujo. ( Double bred Hoss by Teak).
Pepper is bred to Chill (7/8 BC x 1/8 Bulldog) Hoss and Rita
Chilli will be bred to Teak (7/8 BC x 1/8 Bulldog) Hoss and Susie
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Luke and Lacy are the sire and dam of the three puppies, Chancy, Pecos and Yuma, shown below, that I purchased from Luke Kelley of ILL. These dogs are hogdogs. Luke is an American Pit Bulldog weighing #100. used as a catch dog and Lacy is out of a Registered Catahoula Cur and a Registered Black Mouth Cur, weighing #70. and used as a strike/track/catch dog. (The red on her is blood after a hog hunt) I will raise the puppies with the intention of using them for cross-breeding with BC’s and Kelpies in 2012. They will be trained to be cowdogs to the best of their ability and then evaluated to determine if I will use them in my cross-breeding program as a second generation cross. Videos will be taken of them as they progress in their training.
Luke: Registered American Pit Bull Terrior. Lacy: Reg. 1/2 Catahoula and Reg. 1/2 Black Mouth Cur
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First Generation Cross-breeds
Correspondence between Len Dalton and Tim Mathews 2-10-11
Thanks for getting back with me. I’m anxious to see how the new dogs your are introducing into your program work. I have had all kinds of herding dogs and the Catahoula used in the Hangin Tree breed came from my dad. I sent Gary a pair of puppies and he got some from Kenny Reaves (there in LA.) and someone else. Gary ended up using the female puppy I sent him in developing the breed. He sent me one of the first crosses out of his Scot (Border Collie) dog. We had the Catahoula for several years and then I started using some Black Mouth Curs. I crossed a Black mouth cur female with a Border collie that I got from William Hetzel and these worked a little better for me on the first cross. I know it depends on the individual dogs but overall the Black Mouth Curs are a little easier handling dogs. The Weatherford Ben line of dogs we have tend to be a little catchy (ears mostly). This is sometimes a problem catching cattle for the public but they are still overall more biddable than the strain of Catahoula that we had.
I was also wondering how the dog you got from Larry Griggs was working. If the dog is out of the Rip dog that’s a dog I got from Tony McCallum and raised. I let Larry have him to use for breeding after he got older but this was a good dog on pairs. He wasn’t a really rough dog but when he got cattle moving he was smart and stayed back and didn’t harass them and the cows would keep moving away with the calves.
I hope you have good luck with these crosses. I’ll will be sending you a check for the newer copy of tape #1.
Thanks for your time.
Tim Mathews
Mr. Dalton like you mentioned I have found that the first cross dogs will not take the same kind of training as the border collies and kelpies. The border collies I am working have such a high desire to work that they will take any rules you put on them Just to get to work. I work dogs more on a cord now than I did in the past. This is mainly due to the fact that I had to push the dogs out before to control the training situation and it bothered some of them and I feel like they thought it was wrong to bite. With the cord I keep the dogs off and control them but I don’t have to get after them as much and it seems to be helping me. I guess I’m working a lot more of the Ben Means method than I have before. It is kind of like I teach the drive first. I was worried about the dogs not having a good fetch but so far I haven’t had any problem with the dogs not going around on the fetch. The pure BMC, Catahoula and first crosses that I have worked with have not been able to take this kind of pressure in training. Like you I have found out when you put more handle on the cur type dogs it seems to take a lot out of them. I guess they lack a little drive and desire to take the restrictions.
I do have a friend, George Gilispe that makes a living catching cattle for the public and he uses cur type dogs and has for several years. I have been with him catching some really rank cattle that had never been worked with dogs and one set of cattle that were previously spoiled by dogs that could not handle them (a story I should tell you about sometime, it was unbelievable how it turned out). These herds are cattle where the farmers had caught all the cows they could and left the rest. There were pairs that had calves of various ages
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George never gets out of his truck while penning wild cattle. One of George’s dogs is a pure BMC that is really good on the fetch and has a lot of balance. George will also put out a border collie at times that is not a real strong dog but kind of helps to move the curs and crosses to the right position around the herd. He hauls all of his dogs in one box on the back of his truck. He is very strict about the dogs left in the truck not making any noise while the dogs working fetch the cows behind the truck. I don’t know if this has anything to do with it or not but his dogs don’t bark much while working either.
In regard to the BMC barking mine do bark when working. My first cross dogs (with border collies) are better but they do bark if they get in any trouble moving cattle. I use the pure BMC for a different type work than we have been talking about. The bark is good when I am hunting cattle in heavily wooded areas and cut over (where timber has been cut and the under growth has come back and you can’t get through it with a horse or vehicle). The bark helps me locate the cattle. I have found one other incident where the bark helps when I put the dogs out and the cattle are really scattered the cows will come from everywhere to fight the dogs (this would not work on cattle that have been spoiled with bad dogs). Pretty quick the herd will be together and I can decide whether to leave the dogs circling the herd until the cows stop fighting and then pen with my collies and cross breeds or push against my curs to the pen.
On another note I have a ½ bull dog and ½ kelpie that is totally silent. I am working a ¾ kelpie out of him that is taking the training on the cord and is doing well so far and she is also silent. One thing about the bull dog that I was wrong about is I thought the bull dog would be hard headed. While he will take a lot of abuse from stock the one I have will not take a lot of pressure from me. I had two of these dogs but one of them wanted to catch all the time. The one I kept can be trusted to stay on the back side and work the fetch with the other dogs. The first cross BMC and border collies are also fairly easy to push back on the fetch. They will take this and not bother them like more precise training does. I have not been able to use them to drive
I know a lot of people say that they don’t need a dog to drive but finding dogs that are capable of fetching unbroken pairs is harder and harder to do. I learned from you that I can drive pairs with a little less powerful dog and also I can save my dogs and work them more in the hot weather by working more on the drive. If the dogs can shut down cattle and kept them from running off it’s a lot easier on the dogs to call them back and drive to the pens. If the cattle have been held up prior to starting the drive they usually don’t try to escape and everything can be slowed down and kept under control better on the drive
It was good to hear back from you and thanks for your time. Tim Mathews
Cross-breeding in 2011.
I have been breeding Bulldogs to Border Collies and Kelpies for the past five years in search of a bolder, stronger cowdog. I have been very successful with a stud dog named Hoss, used to breed back to BCs and Kelpies. He is 3/4 BC and 1/4 Bulldog. Proof of this success are his puppies that have been trained and sold as cowdogs far and wide. Movies were made of the pups as they were in training and can be seen on my website www.daltoncowdogs.com.
Hoss is getting old so I am now researching the possibility of a new stud. The Bulldog breeding is a must in my program. I have seen their quiet, friendly temperament; straight walk-in power; and grit to do what is asked. These are overwhelming attributes. I am interested in perhaps combining Bulldog and Cur genetics in this program. Crossing the Bulldog with a Cur, whether a Black Mouth Cur or a Catahoula, is indifferent to me. The right dog chosen will suit my program.
Now the selection of both the American Bulldog and the Cur is the key to success. These two individuals must be proven to be fearless and intelligent. The Bulldog has no herding instincts, but is easily taught to catch both hogs and cattle. The Cur, on the other hand, has been working cattle for many years, is attracted to them and has the desire to hold them together.
The offspring from these two breeds should show some traits of what I'm looking for in a first generation cross. Using these half-breed pups back on good Border Collie and Kelpie dogs should get me closer to what I want in a cowdog. This would be 1/2 Border Collie or Kelpie, 1/4 Bulldog and 1/4 Cur. Going one step further and breeding back again to Border Collies and Kelpies will produce a 3/4 Border Collie or Kelpie, 1/8 Bulldog and 1/8 Cur, which is the product I am looking for.
I have spent the last five years training many of these Bulldog and Border Collie/Kelpie crosses and have achieved good success. The length of my program has forced me to acquire younger stock, resulting in the need for a new crossbred stud dog.